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《北大互联网法律通讯》（四）社会机器人：作为市民伙伴的机器人 - Paolo Dario 教授专访

比萨圣安娜高等大学生仿生机器人研究院 Paolo Dario 院长, IEEE RAS前主席

翁岳暄（采访）
欧洲大学研究院法律系

专访对象： Paolo Dario教授, 比萨圣安娜高等大学仿生机器人研究院院长, IEEE机器人与自动化学会(RAS)前主席, 欧盟委员会未来技术与新兴技术旗舰研究计划（FET Flagship Initiatives）民用机器人伙伴试点项目（CA-RoboCom）总主持人。Dario教授于1977年自比萨大学获得工学博士学位，在圣安娜高等大学任教期间他一手创立了许多机器人研究所，如ARTS Lab (Advanced Robotics Technology and System) 、CRIM (Center for the Research in Micro-Engineering)，并在多所世界知名大学担任客座教授，包括布朗大学、瑞士洛桑联邦理工学院、早稻田大学、东京大学、法兰西学院、浙江大学等。Dario教授的研究关注在仿生机器人（BioRobotics）、医疗机器人（Medical Robotics）、微机电纳米工程学。除此之外他对于人机共生社会中的伦理与法律议题亦相当感兴趣，他目前是欧盟委员会FP7框架性项目“机器人法“的项目共同主持人。;

时间: 2012年5月25日下午3点
地点: Director Office, The Biorobotics Institute, Scuola Superiore Sant?Anna, Pisa
语言: 英语

1. 也许我们的访谈可以从仿生机器人学(Biorobotics)开始, 在日本机器人学会志的论文“Biorobotics” 中您提出仿生机器人的三个发展方向，分别是“Beyond Tele-operation Platform”, “Beyond Orthoses Platform” 与“Beyond Prostheses Platform”, 您认为在未来十年内何者对于中国而言最为重要？

这篇论文是2005年出版的，已经将近8年的时间了。在那时候我们试图预想一些能够突破现状并且具体反映在经济上的科技进展所以这是为何我们称之为超越（Beyond）。 Beyond一词代表发明或发展出开创性的新解决方案,将此框架套用至仿生机器人的概念中，在（院长办公室）墙上的海报你可以看到上面写着第一届仿生机器人学、科学与工程博士生课程。这个学科试图融合生物学以及人造机械，因此以Bio和Robotics合成的“Biorobotics”一词来呈现，但是更深一层的含义是透过机器人科技来理解生物系统，机器人可以用来作为科学仪器来理解生物系统的运行原则，例如：我们发展人型机器人来理解人类，制作鱼型机器人来理解鱼类及其群体动态，这些是科学的面向。除此之外我们也开发机器人用来照护人类、协助人类以及在医疗手术上作为医师的一种辅助，这些应用超越了一般的生医工学。仿生机器人学同时具备科学与工程两种特质，为了引导出该学科的愿景当时我们策划了这些方向。首先，“Beyond Tele-operation Platform”指发展出新一代的远程操控医疗机器人，像胶囊内视镜（Endoscopy Capsules）它可以在人体内部进行周期性的任务，这是一种非常先进的远程操控机器。其次，“Beyond Orthoses Platform” 则指发展出能够恢复人类丧失的一些机能，例如对于老年人有一种外部支撑骨架能够提升其日益衰退的肌肉机能。最后是 “Beyond Prostheses Platform”，这是指新一代的人造义手、人造义足。在我们最近参与的欧盟FET旗舰试点项目CA-RoboCom中亦包含这几个方向，未来与人共存的机器人伙伴（Robot Companies）可能以医疗机器人、同步作业机器人（Orthoses Platform）、居家服务型机器人等态样呈现。你知道这些机器人伙伴是非常重要的，因为他们是物联网技术应用的另一种体现，这些机器人将和网络相连，他们将不会是全自动的，反之，他们将成为网络的一部分。就你的问题而言我认为这三个方向都很重要，但是其中对中国最为重要的机器人技术应该是下一世代手术用机器人，因为他们能提供更精确的动作不但减轻病患的成本负担也增加医师的手术品质。

This article was published in 2005, so it has already been 8 years. At that time, we were trying to predict what could represent real progress in comparison to what exists currently in the economy. Therefore, we named it ?Beyond.? ?Beyond? represents the invention or development of new radical solutions. We made this framework as a concept of biorobotics. In the director?s office, one can see the poster on the wall of the student that wrote the first Ph.D. program for Biorobotics, Science and Engineering. This discipline tries to fuse ?biology? with ?artificial machines? (bio and robotics, respectively), but more specifically, the discipline calls for the use of robots to understand biological systems. Thus, robots can be used as scientific instruments to better understand principles of the biological systems. For example, we developed a humanoid robot to understand humans, as well as fish robots to understand fish. Furthermore, we developed robots to take care of and assist humans in tasks such as to surgery. It is becoming more than biomedical engineering. This is Biorobotics, which includes science and engineering. In order to represent this vision of Biorobotics we proposed to build these platforms to explore and even perform tasks periodically in the human body. We named this product ?Beyond Tele-operation Platform,? hoping for it to become a new generation of tele-operator medical robots similar to Endoscopy Capsules. In another case, ?Beyond Orthoses Platform? are robots that could possibly restore missing capabilities of the elderly or the disabled. An example of this current technology can be seen in exoskeletons that have the ability to reform muscles of the elderly. In ?Beyond Prostheses Platform,? we hope to develop new generation artificial limbs. In the ?robot companion for citizens? proposal we submitted to European FET Flagship Initiative, we suggested medical robots, coworker robots, rescue and explorer robots. These robots will be connected to a network (?the internet of things?) therefore they will not be completely autonomous. These platforms are all important, but I think the most important for China will be the next generation surgical robots, because it will not only reduce the cost for the patients, but it will also add to the quality of surgeries.

2. 能否请您简单地介绍圣安娜高等大学仿生机器人研究院（The Biorobotics Institute, Scuola Superiore Sant’Anna）给中国的读者呢?

比萨圣安娜高等大学是一所意大利的公立高校（注：比萨大学、圣安娜高等大学、比萨高等师范皆属于比萨大学系统的一部分），和一般意大利高校收生政策不同，它采取精英制选拔最优秀的学生进入本科及研究生院。目前这里也有一些中国留学生但以研究生为主，我们的教育提供学生最先进的科研机会，这些前瞻性的研究领域可以分为医疗机器人（Medical Robotics）、手术机器人（Surgical Robotics）、复健机器人(Rehabilitation Robotics）、人型机器人(Humanoid Robotics）、创造性工程设计(Creative Engineering Design）、神经义肢工学（Neural Prosthetics）、神经机器人(Neural Robotics) 、机械手(Artificial Hands）等。圣安娜仿生机器人研究院的规模十分庞大，约有数百名博士后研究员与博士研究生，我们目前也有与机器人伦理、法律相关的科研项目正在进行中。

Scuola Superiore Sant?Anna is an Italian public university that adopts elitism to select excellent students from undergraduate and graduate schools. Although some Chinese undergraduates study at Sant?Anna, most of them are graduate students. Our education provides advanced research divided into: medical robots, surgical robots, rehabilitation robotics, humanoid robotics, creative engineering design, neural prosthetics, neural robotics, artificial hands, bioimatics. The scale of the Biorobotics Institute is huge. It is composed of 160 researchers and 770 Ph.D. students and the research projects include robot ethics and robolaw.

3. 您也曾经提过 I-SWARM 项目，该项目的目标为何呢？

这个项目现在已经结束了，其主要的目标是在探讨微型机器人如何合作。群智能(Swarm)指复数的机器人能够像蚂蚁或蜜蜂一样地合作执行任务，透过合作他们可以做许多不同的事情。在当时这是一个原创性的构想，我们后来也发展出相应的科技、传感器、驱动器及控制系统等，现在这个概念已经具体落实在模组化手术(Modular Surgery)上。所以群智能的概念是指复数的微型机器人能够在人体内部探索与执行任务甚至在血管内运行作业，以上是群智能的一种可能性。现在我要说的是I-SWARM在操作上的另一个概念，也就是在水下的机器人如何呈现模组化。我们现在思考的是探究类似鱼类的水下机器人要怎么实现群集的动态机制，这个想法也就成了The Angels Project ，其内容是模仿鱼类感测环境电流并且与同类沟通的能力，借此来侦测避开水下环境的障碍物，以上是关于I-SWARM项目的大致情况。

This project is finished: its main objective was the collaboration between micro and miniature robots. ?Swarm? means a number of robots that perform tasks together, like ants and bees. Through collaboration, they can do many different things. This is an original idea and we developed technology, sensors, actuators, and control systems to implement the idea. Now, this concept is implemented in modular surgery. Essentially, ?Swarm? is a group of minute robots that can explore and perform tasks in the human body and even in blood vessels. This is one kind of operation, and there is another kind of operation: I-SWARM. In this operation, modular, underwater robots swarm together like fish. This new project called ?Angels? aims at investigating imitation of cooperative behavior and communication within schools of fish so they are able to successfully avoid obstacles underwater.

4. 每当提到纳米群集机器人，许多人总是会马上联想起麦可‧克莱顿的科幻小说“猎物（Prey）” ，然后开始担忧是否机器人会危及到人类的安危？事实上对于与人类共存的机器人伙伴而言来自法律与伦理的检视是不可或缺的。在Gianmarco Verruggio教授的文章 “The Birth of Roboethics” 中，他曾经提到您与Jose Maria Galvan教授促使科技伦理学(Technoethics)的诞生。在最近几年您也先后成立了EU Ethical-Bot Project与 RoboLaw Project。作为一位工程背景的权威学者，为何您对于机器人衍生的伦理以及法律议题有特殊兴趣呢？

主要有两个理由。首先，我们认为“人“的因素是相当重要的，特别在西方国家人们只接受对他们有用的、安全的、恭敬的机械，所以在此面向上人类居于中心位置，我们想在进一步探究人类的同时发展出完善的、满足人类生活需求的机械。因此去了解人类的期望、需求与其权利等对于我们研发机器人而言是不可或缺的。其次，我们并不希望开发出危险的机器人，所以去理解机器人科技可能衍生的法律议题是很重要的，例如：责任分配的具体实践与对于使用者人格的尊重（注：对于隐私侵害的风险）等等。

For two reasons, one reason is that people are important. Especially in western countries, people can only accept machines that are useful, safe, and respectful to them, so it is important to see this aspect. By considering humans as the center of all this, we want to better know human beings and develop machines to aid the wellness and quality of life of human beings. Thus, it is very important to understand people?s needs, expectations, and rights. Furthermore, we don?t want to invent machines that are dangerous, so it is important to understand the legal issues of liability, respect, and human rights.

5. 欧盟FP7机器人法项目的目标为何呢？

欧盟FP7机器人法项目的目标是准备架构出欧洲机器人立法政策白皮书。简言之，即检视欧洲现行法律如何应对机器人科技进入社会。我们都知道目前的机器人主要是部署在与社会半隔绝的工厂生产作业线中，但是机器人终究会进入人类社会，所以我们希望确立一些原则以及提供管制机器人在居家环境、办公处所乃至于整个社会的相关立法建议。

The objective of the robolaw project is to prepare a white paper document on how European laws should manage the presence of robots in society. At this time, we know robots are used in factories, but eventually, robots will enter the community. We want to identify principles and suggest possible lays to regulate robots at home, in the office and in the community.

6. 您是欧盟委员会未来技术与新兴技术旗舰研究计划（FET Flagship Initiatives）民用机器人伙伴试点项目总主持人，现在与您一同参加遴选的有其他5个试点项目，在今年底被选中的最后两个项目将会获得欧盟委员会10亿欧元的长期资助，如果您的计划获得了最后的资助的话，CA-RoboCom究竟要如何对欧洲社会许下承诺呢？

首先，我们想创造出新科学、新知识，我们想更进一步了解生物背后的秘密，从生物中抽取出一些原则来促成新的科技应用，例如：柔软机器人（Soft Robots），这种机器人在运行上动作更加柔和、安全。其次，则是开发新一代的协作平台，像是我之前提过的手术机器人，透过与医疗专业人员的合作能够有效提升医疗品质。我们也重视救灾机器人，这种技术不止可以用于欧洲更可以广泛地在世界各地使用并协助人类进行重大灾害后的重建工作，包含消防机器人、飞行机器人、水下机器人与跳跃机器人等。当然，面对老龄化社会思考支持老年人生活起居的机器人技术也是重要的，例如：减轻身体负担的力学套件-机器人套装。我们希望尽可能开发出能展示上述机能的机器人但是其目的还是以发展出对欧洲社会有具体实益的机器人科技为依归。

First, we want to generate new science and knowledge to better understand the secret of living beings, and then extract principles from living creatures and new technology to build applications such as soft robots ? robots that behave safely and are gentle. The second objective is to develop new co-working platforms. Like the one I mentioned earlier, health robots assist caretakers to improve medical practices. We also want to develop search and rescue robots in the Europe to assist humans in event of a catastrophe, using robots that fly, swim, and jump. Also, we want to develop robots to assist aging people (eg. exoskeletons). Then, we want to develop an impressive new prototype that integrates all these capabilities and performances, but specifically focusing on European society.

7. 我先前看过CA-RoboCom的展示影片，其中提升机械的知觉（SENTIENCE）是CA-RoboCom的目标之一，为何SENTIENCE这概念对于创造出市民的机器人伙伴如此地重要？

因为机器人并不应该仅仅能够提供人类在生活上的劳动服务，它们也应当能够具有处理情感交流的能力来满足人类的需求。尽管这是很重要的但这种层次的智能却并不等同“自主（Autonomy）“，我们希望机器人能够预期人类的需求并提供相应的解决方案，这也是为何在与人互动方面它必须具有相当程度的情感接收表达能力来预期人类使用者的需求。同时，感知（Sensing）也意味着机器人能够与环境互动、主动躲避障碍物、避免伤害到人类（注：SENTIENCE包含感知、认知、情感交流与行动）。

Because robots should not only be able to assist humans, but they also have to have feelings and understand the needs of people. In terms of interaction with human, they need to emotionally anticipate the needs of person. This is the most important thing, but this level of intelligence doesn?t mean autonomy. We intend for the robots to understand the needs of humans and devise a solution for its user. At the same time, sensing also means robots are able to interact with the environment, avoid obstacles, and not hurt people.

8. ELSI – 伦理、法律与社会议题也是CA-RoboCom中的一个重要部分, 究竟CA-RoboCom 与机器人法项目之间存在什么样的关系呢？

非常接近，但是它们是彼此独立的两个项目。当然，我们先前在CA-RoboCom所获得的成功经验可以直接套用到机器人法项目上。

Very close, they are independent. Of course, we plan to use the experience of Robo-Com to Robolaw if it is successful.

9. 您主持的 DustCart项目透过实证测试来评估人机在真实环境共存的可能性，对于机器人管制研究而言这可以说是一个里程碑。能否请您简单地介绍一下此项目？

关于DustCart项目或许Percle Salvini博士可以告诉你。他是圣安娜研究院中专门负责机器人伦理、法律与社会议题的学者，你待会儿可以到楼下与他谈谈。

Maybe Percle Salvini can further elaborate on the DustCart project. He is the researcher in charge of robot law, ethics and social issues at our institute. You can go downstairs to his office later to discuss this with him.

10. 浙江大学前阵子透过媒体展示了“利用猴子脑波控制的机械手臂“研究，从媒体报道图片中我发现他们使用的机械手臂是圣安娜制造的，能否请您谈一下目前圣安娜仿生机器人研究院在中国的合作计划？

是的，我们与浙江大学有非常紧密的合作关系，我曾在1983年担任浙大访问教授，到目前为止我还是经常到浙大并与他们保持相当良好的互动关系，例如你刚才提到的研究，基本上猴子的脑波读取是中国的项目而我们只提供机器手臂，这是我们之间具体合作的一个环节。我在比萨也曾经指导过许多浙大的学生，例如浙大工学院的刘伟副教授是我的学生之一。

Yes, we have very close ties with Zhejiang University. I was the visiting professor of Zhejiang University in 1983. I have been there many times. Although this was a project hosted by the Chinese, we collaborated with them and provided the robotics hand. I have also supervised many students from Zhejiang University: one of them is the Associate Professor of Faculty of Engineering of ZJU, Dr. Wei Liu.

11. 中国十二五规划的一个主要目标是将中国从“世界工厂“转型成为”世界市场“，在此转型期间工资的提升也将是不可避免的。然而，一些企业例如富士康计划部署百万部产业机器人投入到生产线中并且取代人类劳工，不少人担忧机器人将会抢走他们的工作，您是如何评论此次富士康的决定呢？

这是当然可能发生的事情，但是根据国际机器人联盟(IFR) 最近发布的报告指出在过去40年来即便是在发展中国家被机器人所取代的工作机会最终会补偿在其他形式的工作上面。从宏观的角度来看机器人抢走人类工作的说法并不正确，或许从少数的样本来看是这样没错，但是从长远来看这样的说法是有问题的。

This is certainly possible, but there is a recent report issued by International Federation of Robotics (IFR) indicating that if you consider the history of last 40 years (including developing countries), the total amount of jobs eliminated by robots where compensated by other jobs. Overall, it is not true that robots take jobs away from people. Maybe in some cases, yes, but in the long run, it is not true.

12. 最后，Pericle Salvini, Cecilia Laschi与您曾经发表过一篇论文“Design for Acceptability: Improving Robots’ Coexistence in Human Society”。依您的高见“接受度（Acceptability）”如何能够促进人类-机器人共存社会的形成呢？

我们的机器人希望成为市民的伙伴，而伙伴又意味着必须被人类所接受，我不认为机器人伙伴的意思是取代人类。比方说你有部洗衣机，或者吸尘器如Roomba，这都是很受欢迎的机械，而则这也正是我们所想要的，即机器人对人友善、有益，例如：我喜欢脚踏车、我喜欢摩托车、我喜欢汽车、我喜欢我的手机，因为它们对我来说非常的友善，而且我也可以非常容易地与它们互动，这些都是我们目前期望达成的目标。让机械更进一步地被人类所接受，我们最终想要研发的还是人类所喜爱的机械。

Our robots want to be companions, and being companion means to be accepted. I don?t think companion means substitution. When you have a washing machine, or a cleaning machine like Roomba, it becomes a very welcomed machine. This is what we would like to have: robots as companions like a bicycle, motorcycle, car or cellphone because they are very user friendly. This is what we want to achieve: invent machines that people like.